{"id":192162,"date":"2015-06-30T14:49:06","date_gmt":"2015-06-30T17:49:06","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/revistapesquisa.fapesp.br\/?p=192162"},"modified":"2015-07-30T15:13:42","modified_gmt":"2015-07-30T18:13:42","slug":"alexander-wilhelm-armin-kellner-on-the-wings-of-the-past","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/revistapesquisa.fapesp.br\/en\/alexander-wilhelm-armin-kellner-on-the-wings-of-the-past\/","title":{"rendered":"Alexander Wilhelm Armin Kellner: On the wings of the past"},"content":{"rendered":"

\"EntrevistaL\u00c9O RAMOS<\/span><\/a>The first stones that 53-year-old geologist and paleontologist Alexander Wilhelm Armin Kellner encountered along life\u2019s path were precious ones. His father had a jewelry business in Rio de Janeiro in the 1970s. At the age of 12, Kellner\u2014who was born prematurely in the tiny European principality of Liechtenstein, and whose German father and Austrian mother immigrated to Brazil in the post-war period\u2014was serving coffee and sweeping the floor in the family store. Since that time, rocks of a different kind\u2014holding the remains of vertebrates preserved in fossil form\u2014have paved the way in his professional life.<\/p>\n

A naturalized Brazilian since 1997, Alex Kellner, as he is better known, is one of the world\u2019s leading experts on pterosaurs, a rare group of flying reptiles that, like the dinosaurs, emerged in the late Triassic period about 230 million years ago and mysteriously went extinct in the late Cretaceous period 66 million years ago. Although there have been specimens the size of a sparrow, pterosaurs\u2014the first vertebrates to take flight\u2014are popularly associated with large animals whose open wings could reach a span of more than 10 meters. They were the masters of the skies for over 160 million years.<\/p>\n

Kellner, who is a professor at the National Museum of the Federal University of Rio de Janeiro (UFRJ), has published more than 200 papers in scientific journals, and has described nearly 60 new species of vertebrates. \u201cBut there\u2019s a little of everything there\u2014dinosaurs and crocodilians, among other fauna. Among the pterosaurs, I\u2019ve described 29 species,\u201d says the paleontologist, who is also a research associate of the American Museum of Natural History (AMNH) and of the Institute of Vertebrate Paleontology and Paleoanthropology (IVPP) in Beijing. From April 2014 to January 2015, the AMNH in New York hosted an exhibition of these winged reptiles, for which Kellner and Mark Norell, an American colleague, served as co-curators.<\/p>\n

With its rich deposits of Cretaceous fossils dating back 115 million to 110 million years, Brazil\u2019s Araripe Basin, which spans parts of the states of Cear\u00e1, Piau\u00ed and Pernambuco, has been one of Kellner\u2019s most abundant sources of pterosaur remains. In recent years, China has become another major source of material for his studies. \u00a0\u201cThe Chinese have decided to invest in paleontology. Now they don\u2019t let any fossils leave there,\u201d he notes. \u201cWe should do the same.\u201d During our interview, Kellner spoke a little about his family history, and about the occasionally winding path that his research has taken.<\/p>\n

How did you end up in Brazil?<\/b><\/strong>
\nMy father was German, and was born in 1926. Where was he around 1945? You know those guys in Downfall, <\/i><\/em>the movie about Hitler, who never left Berlin and were completely clueless? I can imagine my father being one of them. Things went badly for him during the war. He lost his whole family and was taken prisoner by the Russians, but he escaped and was later captured by the Americans. He was freed by a Jewish official, because he was a poor wretched soul. After that, my father started working on buying and selling land, and he stayed on in Austria and Switzerland. He came to Brazil in the 1960s with my mother, who was Austrian. She passed away last year. She had me at the age of 17, when she happened to be passing through Liechtenstein. I stayed with my grandfather in Austria for the first four years of my life, until my parents got established here. In 1965, my mother came and brought me back, and I\u2019ve been in Brazil ever since. At that time everyone was talking about the miracle of Bras\u00edlia, the future capital. When my father came here, there was a lot of talk about land sales. He came, and he saw there was nothing interesting in this area, but he made up his mind to settle in Brazil. He went to Bras\u00edlia first, and traveled through Minas Gerais and then Rio, where he found an interesting economic pathway in precious stones.<\/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n
Age:<\/strong><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
53<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Specialty:<\/strong><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Paleontology<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Education:<\/strong><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Undergraduate and Master\u2019s degrees in Geology from UFRJ, PhD from Columbia University in partnership with the American Museum of Natural History<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Institution:<\/strong><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
National Museum\/UFRJ<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Scientific Production:<\/strong><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
Over 200 scientific articles and nearly 60 species of vertebrates discovered, including 29 pterosaurs<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n

Your first language was German, then?<\/b><\/strong>
\nWhen I got here I spoke only German. I studied at Corcovado, a trilingual German school that at the time was in Rio\u2019s Urca neighborhood and is now located in the Botafogo neighborhood. You learn Portuguese, German and English there. I started working at my father\u2019s store when I was 12. He was a hardliner sort of guy. Nothing comes free; you have to work for things, he used to say. I served coffee, cleaned all the glass, swept the floor. It was great. That was the start of my education.<\/p>\n

Did your passion for paleontology begin in childhood?<\/b><\/strong>
\nI wanted to be everything\u2014an astronaut, a diplomat, and I thought about getting into management in order to tend to my father\u2019s businesses. But what happened in the meantime? I was playing soccer, I was a goalie, and my school team had a wonderful opportunity to play against a team in the junior ranks of the Flamengo Soccer Club. Even though I was a huge fan of the Fluminense Club, to us it was an honor. We just wanted to win, and we called in a few older students who had just passed the university entrance exam, to strengthen our team. We tied 2 to 2. I was the star of the game and even blocked a penalty kick. I was 15 or 16. I remember it was two years before the entrance exam. There was a celebration after the game. One of the older guys told me he had just passed the entrance exam in geology. I didn\u2019t know what that was. He said it was the study of rocks and asked me what I was going to do. At first I said management, and then I said I wanted to study those animals you find in stones\u2014fossils. Later on I learned that the correct thing to call it is rock. Calling it stone is heresy to a geologist. Then he said to me, \u201cIf you want to be a paleontologist, you have to study geology.\u201d I took the bus right home and told my mother I was going to study geology. \u201cGeo what?\u201d she asked. That gives you an idea of how educated we were.<\/p>\n

Was it easy to get into the geology program at UFRJ?<\/b><\/strong>
\nYou had to score 5,534 on the entrance exam to get in. And that\u2019s what I did. I got the last of the 40 openings. Geology was highly competitive. While I was still an undergraduate, I started working with Diogenes de Almeida Campos, a paleontologist in the National Department of Mineral Production (DNPM). [See interview with Almeida Campos in Pesquisa FAPESP <\/i><\/em>Issue No. 108]. That partnership continues to this day. I subsequently got an undergraduate research scholarship. I left home and went to live with a friend, depending partly on the scholarship, and partly on working with my father. I finished my undergraduate studies during a complicated time at UFRJ. One professor flunked the whole class in the last year, and we filed a lawsuit against him. Some other students and I completed the course, but a few students didn\u2019t pass. I was upset about the whole thing and wanted to leave academia. I was working with my father, earning some good money and thinking about moving on with my life. But I liked paleontology, so I continued to go to the DNPM. One day, Diogenes asked me if I was going to continue doing research. I said yes, and in response he said I\u2019d have to get a master\u2019s degree. The following year, I went into the master\u2019s program at UFRJ. I took the top spot, got a scholarship and got into a disagreement with my father\u2014another one, because he didn\u2019t want me to become a paleontologist. He wanted me to stay in business with him. Then I got an opportunity that changed my life. It was 1989, at the meeting of the Society of Vertebrate Paleontology, held in Austin, Texas.<\/p>\n

What happened at the meeting?<\/b><\/strong>
\nThe first thing I noticed was that this meeting of paleontologists from around the world who specialize in fossil vertebrates was being held in a five-star hotel. In Brazil, we held events in small venues, sometimes in places that didn\u2019t even have a bathroom. The first presentation I saw at the meeting was on paleopathology, the study of diseases in fossils. I was in the middle of my master\u2019s program and had never heard anyone talk about that. That event had an entire session devoted to the subject. Then came papers on isotopes, and on cladism, which is the phylogenetic relationship between organisms. I knew nothing about it. I remember that, after the fourth or fifth presentation, I left the meeting determined to become a researcher.<\/p>\n

\"The

Personal archive<\/span><\/a> The paleontologist in the field in China in 2005Personal archive<\/span><\/p><\/div>\n

How did you end up doing your PhD at Columbia University in a program connected with the AMNH?<\/b><\/strong>
\nWhile working on my master\u2019s, I went to Europe and saw several collections, including in Germany, at the Bavarian Institute of Paleontology and Geology. There was a researcher there by the name of Peter Wellnhofer, who had several published papers, and I went to talk to him. Wellnhofer took me to a cabinet in his room, opened a drawer and showed me a complete pterosaur wing. He opened another drawer and there was a complete skull there, full of other, smaller bones. Every fossil I saw over the course of a few seconds was from Brazil. He said he was finishing a paper and he thought the AMNH was likely to have more material. He suggested I talk with John Maisey, who is currently curator of the Paleontology Division at the New York-based museum. I came back to Brazil frustrated. I was working here with a pile of broken pterosaur detritus, while over in Germany they had the complete animal. I decided to write a letter to Maisey. I said I was doing my master\u2019s on pterosaurs and asked if he had any material I could study. I sent the letter with no expectation of a reply. But Maisey said he knew my work\u2014I don\u2019t know where he knew it from, although I\u2019d published quite a lot since my student days. To make a long story short, I ended up being accepted into Columbia and I moved to New York with my wife and two small children. I was there from 1991 to 1996. I started with the National Museum in 1997, when I came back to Brazil.<\/p>\n

How did you get interested in pterosaurs?<\/b><\/strong>
\nIt was in large part because I loved \u201cThe Herculoids,\u201d a cartoon TV series created in the US in the late 1960s that later was shown in Brazil. It had dragons, and it all fascinated me.<\/p>\n

How do you describe a pterosaur to a layperson?<\/b><\/strong>
\nTo put it simply, they are reptiles with huge wings and a very small body. The more basic types had a long tail and a short neck. The more derivative types had a short tail, a long neck and a head that was even more oversized in relation to the body. In evolutionary terms, it\u2019s best to say that pterosaurs are neither birds nor dinosaurs. Although there is still some discussion about exactly where these winged animals belong in the evolutionary chain of reptiles, most authors, including myself, support the notion that pterosaurs are a close relative of the dinosaurs\u2014a dinosaur sister-group. That means that the two groups come from a recent shared ancestor, and each group later followed its own evolutionary path independently. While the dinosaurs dominated terra firma, the pterosaurs became the masters of the skies. There are, however, paleontologists who believe the pterosaurs are closer to the evolutionary line that led to lizards.<\/p>\n

Aren\u2019t the recorded fossil finds of dinosaurs a little older than the pterosaur finds?<\/b><\/strong>
\nThe oldest dinosaurs are over 230 million years old, while pterosaurs date back around 215 or 200 million years. This only has to do with the question of fossil preservation. In numerical terms, there are eight or nine times more known species of dinosaurs than of pterosaurs. About 215 pterosaur species have been described. Of those, approximately 150 are considered scientifically valid. Of the 2,000 described dinosaur species, a little over 1,000 are considered valid, depending on the reference source used.<\/p>\n

\"Kellner

Personal archive<\/span><\/a> Kellner with his children in Washington, DC, in 1993: PhD studies at the American Museum of Natural HistoryPersonal archive<\/span><\/p><\/div>\n

Why can\u2019t a pterosaur be considered a bird?<\/b><\/strong>
\nThere are three groups that have developed active flight: birds, bats and pterosaurs. The rest are gliders. Each group has a different evolutionary history. We know that a pterosaur is not a bird by its anatomy, by studying the bones. Pterosaurs had an elongated fourth finger\u2014the ring finger\u2014that supported a wing membrane. That configuration is very different from the one in bats, which have four fingers that are integrated into the wing, and birds, which have feathers and proportionately more-developed bones of the forearm.<\/p>\n

Is it possible to have an idea of how pterosaurs and dinosaurs coexisted? <\/b><\/strong>
\nThere are records of pterosaurs that were preyed upon by dinosaurs. For example, they\u2019ve found the tooth of a spinosaurus\u2014a carnivorous dinosaur\u2014inside a set of pterosaur vertebrae. Generally speaking, we can say that they lived together but, with the exception of the avian dinosaurs, from which birds were derived, they inhabited separate environments. All the pterosaur records indicate that they flew. This meant that they could get away from the earthbound dinosaurs. Only the avian dinosaurs competed with the pterosaurs.<\/p>\n

Why did the Araripe Basin preserve so many vertebrate fossils?<\/b><\/strong>
\nAraripe is a marvelous region in terms of Cretaceous fossil preservation. I like to say that this is so because God is Brazilian. But all jokes aside, agnostic that I am, there is a scientific explanation for the abundance of fossils in that region. Araripe was a gigantic lake bottom, but it was anoxic (having no oxygen), so anything that fell into the lake was neither destroyed nor decomposed. That feature preserved fossils, and it also enabled the formation of calcareous nodules that enveloped the organic remains, functioning like a jacket that protected the bones from the compressive weight of the sedimentary layers. The most well-preserved fossils today, other than those encased in amber, are found in calcareous nodules. Some pterosaurs from Araripe are very particular. The ones from the subfamily Thalassodrominae, with enormous crests, have been found only in Brazil. The Tapejarinae, which have smaller crests, were first found here in Brazil, and only later in China and elsewhere. Not to mention the Anhangueridae, which had well-developed teeth and were first recorded in Brazil, and later in other parts of the world.<\/p>\n

With nearly 30 described species of pterosaurs, what are your principal contributions to our understanding of these winged reptiles?<\/b><\/strong>
\nI have a theory, proposed in 1994, about the competition between birds and pterosaurs. I did a global analysis and saw that there is an absurdly large concentration of pterosaurs in four fossil deposits: Solnhofen, in southern Germany; Cambridge Greensand, in England; Araripe, in the Brazilian Northeast; and the Niobrara Formation, in the United States. These deposits represent areas that were once close to the sea. If you compare their fossil content, there are many more pterosaurs than birds. Even though both groups have fragile bones, that is not a phenomenon that can be explained by preservation. So I can say that during the Cretaceous and much of the Jurassic, the coastal areas were dominated by the pterosaurs, which greatly predominated over birds. In continental interiors, we don\u2019t know which was dominant. We don\u2019t have enough data. China may be the only place in the world where you can weigh the question of competition between pterosaurs and birds outside coastal regions. They have fossil deposits in parts of their ancient continental landmass.<\/p>\n

Can it be said that, even though pterosaurs were reptiles, some were able to control their body temperature?<\/b><\/strong>
\nDiogenes and I did a physiological study, published in Science <\/i><\/em>in 2002, which addresses that question. I showed that a pterosaur with a large crest displayed imprints, interpreted as blood vessels that indicated some form of thermal regulation. This reptile had a metabolism closer to that of a homeotherm. Another interesting contribution, which touches on that question, was something I did with my Chinese colleagues. It involves a reevaluation of the presence of hair in pterosaurs. A paleontologist had found a material that appeared to be pterosaur hair in a fossil from Kazakhstan. But everyone said that was not what it was. We recovered that history and, on the basis of Jeholopterus ningchengensis<\/i><\/em>, a species from China, we showed that pterosaurs had hair. That was a paper from 2009. We call those dense filaments pycnofibers. Another important paper was one I published in Nature<\/i><\/em> in 1999. I showed that we had found fossilized soft tissue, muscle fibers and blood vessels in a 110-million-year-old dinosaur, which I named Santanaraptor placidus <\/i><\/em>soon afterwards. My dream, though, would be to find someone in Brazil from the field of molecular biology to carry out a research study on biomolecules in soft tissue. I have some wonderful material, but I can\u2019t change the focus of my research.<\/p>\n

In recent decades, China has gained global prominence in paleontology. Is this because they have a larger concentration of dinosaur and pterosaur fossils in that part of the world? <\/b><\/strong>
\nNo. There are pterosaurs on every continent, probably even Antarctica. The problem is that about 50% of pterosaur diversity and over 90% of the specimens are from the four regions I\u2019ve mentioned, plus the fossil deposits in the Yixian and Jiufotang formations in China, which were discovered recently. We\u2019ve tried to fit together some of the pieces of that jigsaw puzzle, but we don\u2019t know if they\u2019re properly arranged. The information is scattered, and every time we find a new deposit, things change. That\u2019s what happened with China. Do you know when the first pterosaur from those deposits in China was described? In 1997.<\/p>\n

\"With

Personal Archive<\/span><\/a> With his team in the Araripe Basin in 2011: region rich in fossils from the Cretacean periodPersonal Archive<\/span><\/p><\/div>\n

You have done a lot of research studies with the Chinese. How is the partnership going?<\/b><\/strong>
\nIt\u2019s something I am proud of. This is the twelfth year in a row that I\u2019m going to China, and I\u2019ve now published more than a dozen papers with them. At least 50% of my research these days is funded by the Chinese. They have deposits that are rich in fossils and they have investment. In Brazil we have deposits too, but there are no resources. My colleagues over there have $1 million to work with to carry out their research. Do you know when I\u2019ll get that much money to study fossils in our own country? I\u2019ve never gotten even 10% of that amount. The Chinese government says that paleontology is important, and it invests in it.<\/p>\n

Why do they think it\u2019s important to promote paleontology?<\/b><\/strong>
\nThey are interested in developing all areas of basic science. That includes paleontology. They publish a lot of papers in Science<\/i><\/em> and Nature<\/i><\/em> on different types of fossils, and not just dinosaurs, and they use science communication to attract young people to their natural history museums. Brazilian science once tried to compete on an equal footing with China. But we didn\u2019t give it enough resources to even begin. Brazil is now going to lose ground to India. We haven\u2019t lost ground yet in paleontology, but it\u2019s going to happen soon unless some changes are made.<\/p>\n

What is the status with regard to paleontology in Brazil?<\/b><\/strong>
\nIt\u2019s a horrible state of affairs. Most of my colleagues understand my position, but they don\u2019t like it when I say this. Our scientific output is extremely weak compared to our potential. Many countries are passing Brazil by. There are islands of exception, as is happening in other areas of Brazilian science. But in general, paleontology in Brazil is a far cry from what a country with so many extremely rich fossil deposits can offer to science around the world. And this is not because my colleagues and I don\u2019t want to work. We are losing out by 10 to 1 to Argentina, for example. Even with the whole crisis, they continue to invest in this field. Of course, the Argentines have things that give them advantages, such as desert areas with fossils and a longer-running tradition in paleontology. But that is no excuse for Brazil to be in such a shaky position.<\/p>\n

What is the objective of the SOS Dinosaurs movement you launched in January?<\/b><\/strong>
\nWe want more funding for Brazilian paleontology. We want the support agencies to establish a specific area for paleontology. Right now we are not being heard. They\u2019re killing off a generation of new researchers. We are seen as a specialty within geology, zoology, or even botany on project award committees that usually do not include paleontologists. You can put it in writing: with investment, a number of extremely important fossils will be found in the state of Bahia. Of course, if I knew exactly where, I\u2019d be there this minute. There is a need for systematic searches in the numerous Cretacean deposits in that state, which has all the conditions for us to find interesting things. But you have to invest. I often hear researchers from other countries say that we aren\u2019t exploring our fossil deposits, and therefore Brazil can\u2019t complain about its specimens leaving the country.<\/p>\n

How big a problem is fossil contraband in Brazil today?<\/b><\/strong>
\nFrom the 1960s to the 1980s, Brazilian fossils were all over the place. Anyone could get them on beaches or in airports. That has now changed, partly through the efforts of a number of researchers in the previous generation and mine to build awareness about the scientific value of this material. Some European countries allow the sale of fossils. Not here. But contraband is still a serious problem. Restricting their sale is a positive move, but there needs to be some incentive to enable researchers to collect samples. In China, people collect fossils and turn them over to institutions. Brazil isn\u2019t doing its homework. The Chinese used to have the same problem we do. They invested in paleontology, and today you can\u2019t take a fossil out of there without running into problems with the authorities or it being frowned upon by professional colleagues. It is always worth remembering that a good fossil collection attracts good researchers, who do good work and get more funding. And for what purpose? To collect more, and in this way to contribute to our understanding of the evolution of life on our planet! A good collection is the foundation for everything. Another blemish for our country is the situation of our natural history museums. With a few exceptions, most are in a difficult situation, with antiquated exhibits and zero attraction. Early this year, for example, the National Museum, the oldest in Brazil, closed its doors for a time because it couldn\u2019t pay for cleaning and security services.<\/p>\n

You were arrested by the Federal Police in 2012 at the Juazeiro do Norte airport in Cear\u00e1 State, accused of illegally transporting fossils, and you spent a night in jail. Could you talk about that episode?<\/b><\/strong>
\nThat story has a little of everything. I don\u2019t mind if some parts of it are made public. But others I prefer not to disclose. I\u2019m suing the DNPM\u2014the very same place where I began my work\u2014because of the jail time, and I\u2019m asking for $R1 million in damages. A French colleague who was with me and was also arrested is doing likewise. I can say that I promoted a research project in which a local research group in Cear\u00e1 would collect material in Araripe, and that there was a dispute with the local DNPM. We were arrested at the airport with fish fossils that we were taking to Rio de Janeiro. It was perfectly legal, as I\u2019ve always done. I\u2019ve brought fossils from Araripe to Rio all my life. I owe a lot to Araripe. I would not have studied at Columbia University if it had not been my guiding light and enabled me to do research on material from the Northeast. I believed it was right, and good for the development of local research, for there to be a local group that collected material from those deposits. More recently they\u2019ve been trying to get me to agree to withdraw the suit. But I\u2019m going through with it, and it\u2019s in the hands of the courts.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"Paleontologist talks about the difficulties of doing research in his field","protected":false},"author":13,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_exactmetrics_skip_tracking":false,"_exactmetrics_sitenote_active":false,"_exactmetrics_sitenote_note":"","_exactmetrics_sitenote_category":0,"footnotes":""},"categories":[161],"tags":[255],"coauthors":[101],"class_list":["post-192162","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-interview","tag-paleontology"],"acf":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/revistapesquisa.fapesp.br\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/192162","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/revistapesquisa.fapesp.br\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/revistapesquisa.fapesp.br\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/revistapesquisa.fapesp.br\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/13"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/revistapesquisa.fapesp.br\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=192162"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/revistapesquisa.fapesp.br\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/192162\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/revistapesquisa.fapesp.br\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=192162"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/revistapesquisa.fapesp.br\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=192162"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/revistapesquisa.fapesp.br\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=192162"},{"taxonomy":"author","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/revistapesquisa.fapesp.br\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/coauthors?post=192162"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}